Comments on: Jesus Culture, we have a problem…your lyric

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By: James

James — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:16:20 +0000

I came upon this article today… God's love is freely given. He loves all people as they are, wholly, Holy, perfectly. AGAPE! Our reward is when we figure that out. My wife loves me, but if I never spend time with her, if I never invest in our relationship, I never experience nor understand how much she loves me. What God wants is a relationship where loves is freely given and reciprocated. When we worship we are seeking to both exalt the Lord and to experience His love. Kim Walker talks about this all the time. "There are some of you here who have never experienced His love, His amazing Love…" When we seek God's (love) presence we experience the love so many just talk about (the award).
It's not knowing the name Jesus, it's knowing Jesus

By: Kyle Campos

Kyle Campos — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:10:04 +0000

Read the scriptures in the post. You are right though, we weren't given his love for being alive, He gave it to us when we were *dead* in sin. If you desire and are able to ask for “more of Jesus” it's only because he's already loved you, saved you from death, and given you breath to do so.Now of course there is ongoing relationship, sanctifying work in the believer where we are made more and more in his image, so in that sense I agree of “asking for more” but that does not cause God to bestow his love and grace upon us as a reward, it's *because* he bestowed his love and grace upon us that we make such requests.

By: andrew

andrew — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:54:40 +0000

its as easy as looking at the second part of the verse, we arent just given his love, for bieng alive, hence, ''thats why we ask for more of you'' when you ask for more of god, truely and with your heart, he gives you his love,

By: Kyle Campos

Kyle Campos — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:43:04 +0000

First, I didn't goto a bible college. Second, the point of the critique is from a biblical perspective, not a poetic perspective, so if you have some biblical literature that proves your point by all means share.

By: Liz Rushing

Liz Rushing — Sun, 23 Oct 2011 06:56:18 +0000

This blog demonstrates, perhaps better than any I've seen lately, why Bible college grads make very bad art and music critics. Impossible to even begin to explain…other than to say, there is a vast universe of literature and poetry that uses the word "reward" in ways your little Dictionary might have missed.
Not. Even. Close.

By: Kyle Campos

Kyle Campos — Mon, 03 Oct 2011 16:25:04 +0000

A corporate worship song context is not one man's “inner experience”. If that's the intended context then the song should be sung in that man's closet and not with the church.A common thread of defense in this blog thread is saying the person who just “doesn't get it” obviously has a shallow walk with the Lord. I can't imagine a more arrogant position. I may very well be wrong in my perspective, my opinion is certainly not infallible, but please, spare me the “you haven't gone deep enough” bit.

By: bobby

bobby — Mon, 03 Oct 2011 03:27:30 +0000

I think these remarks to another mans inner experience and the painting of it, lacks intimacey. To say that God loves us first is true. To say that we love God is true.To say that we can not even love God without first experiencing his love for us is a deeper understanding of truth.To say that our reward for allowing God to love us-enter into it ,and to respond with love to him,is to receive more of God's love is profound and can only be said by those who have walked in the endless cycle . To pear into a small section of this cycle can look like the reward of a lover is to be able to love and be loved an even deeper truth Maybe it would have greater value to persue your own experiences deeper in the lord!

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By: anonymous

anonymous — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 20:59:24 +0000

Greetings! All I want to say here is let's not depend on Genesis 15:1 too much. The translation of the original Hebrew is actually highly debatable. Other reputable translations have "Your reward shall be very great" – and for good reason. The Hebrew word "reward" is indeed there, but as noted above, the word connotes wage, earning, or due given for something done. It is problematic to describe God as a reward, and it's even more problematic went you consider that nowhere in the Bible (feel free to check!) is there the explicit concept of God being our reward. Having said that, I do understand and agree with your (Sacredfly) point that the word "reward" can mean a different thing like "treasure." There is liberty in word choice when it comes to songwriting. All I'm saying is that you cannot entirely use Genesis 15:1 to back up your thought. Otherwise, God bless and press on!

By: anonymous

anonymous — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 20:58:28 +0000

Greetings! All I want to say here is let's not depend on Genesis 15:1 too much. The translation of the original Hebrew is actually highly debatable. Other reputable translations have "Your reward shall be very great" – and for good reason. The Hebrew word "reward" is indeed there, but as noted above, the word connotes wage, earning, or due given for something done. It is problematic to describe God as a reward, and it's even more problematic went you consider that nowhere in the Bible (feel free to check!) is there the concept of God being our reward. Having said that, I do understand and agree with your (Sacredfly) point that the word "reward" can mean a different thing like "treasure." There is liberty in word choice when it comes to songwriting. All I'm saying is that you cannot entirely use Genesis 15:1 to back up your thought. Otherwise, God bless and press on!

By: Candelaria Girt

Candelaria Girt — Sat, 09 Jul 2011 04:27:18 +0000

An fascinating discussion is worth comment. I feel that it’s best to write more on this topic, it may not be a taboo subject however generally persons are not enough to talk on such topics. To the next. Cheers

By: PWC

PWC — Mon, 23 May 2011 21:25:51 +0000

Therefore, God's love cannot be a reward. It is a free gift of His sovereign choice of unmerited favor–grace–that He loves us. It is of His nature, to express His love–to will the good of the other– toward us. Again, this love is unconditional: it is undeserved, and not a reward. Please don't think this is 'nitpicking': it is the crux of God's motivation for our salvation, "In this way God loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…" (John 3:16, cf. Eph. 2:8,9).
I don't think that Jesus Culture intended to mislead anyone, but clearly the words of this lyric have not been thought through. Poetic license must submit to the truth of God: “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” – Jesus (John 4:24). Let us say what we mean, otherwise it is questionable whether we mean what we say.

By: PWC

PWC — Mon, 23 May 2011 21:25:20 +0000

Although 'God is love', we cannot switch this around and say 'love is God'; it isn't true. Love is an attribute of God, one of many attributes: just, holy, righteous, merciful, etc. Searching the Scriptures you will find that every time reward is used it is regarding something done, our works. The NASB translates Gen. 15:1 as "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.” (NASB). The KJV translates this as “…thy exceeding great reward,” but it is the only place in the Bible that I have found where 'reward' is used this way. Again, every time 'reward' is used it is in the context of according to works done: “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done" (Rev. 22:12).

By: Lily

Lily — Sun, 22 May 2011 22:29:46 +0000

Wow, I had N-E-V-E-R! seen that in the Bible! I just checked it out. You know I totally agreed with what Kylie said earlier, I mean, who are we to say we he’s our reward, like we deserve God for being so good. But now, after seeing this, I’m amazed. God said ”
I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.” I am humbled….

By: Kyle Campos

Kyle Campos — Sun, 24 Apr 2011 01:10:48 +0000

Thanks for the comment. I'd agree there are a lot of extrabiblical lyrics which I don't think is an issue at all for his song writing context. As far as unbiblical or contrabiblical, well I'd need to see specific examples of that. If you are referring to How He Loves then I'd recommend reading my post on that http://www.ourrisingsound.com/2009/09/14/john-mar…

I stand by the scriptures though in all cases of course, our mouths (yours, mine, songwriters) are full of error. We are all in the middle of sanctification and growing in truth so we should all submit ourselves and our language to the scripture at all times.

John Mark recently did a line by line commentary of his song Death In His Grave which I think masterfully brings beautiful poetic language to illuminate the beautiful truth of Jesus death and resurrection. There's a ton of biblical references to support his imagery and I think far too many pass over phrases that are poetic in nature without realizing the biblical weight of the lyric. Check it out: http://johnmarkmcmillan.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/…

Someone actually asked this same thing when I first posted this, saying I gave John Mark a "free pass". Here's how I responded…

Appreciate your comment. If you mean "free pass" as in I don't critique or evaluate John Mark's song the same as others then I'd say that's not the case. Every John Mark song I sing in church, and there are a lot, I put through the same evaluation process as any other song. I change *a lot* of his lyrics to adapt for corporate worship (including the line you mention), some songs I don't sing entire verses that I think are confusing are just not helpful in corporate worship. Remember he doesn't record corporate worship albums, so there's a lot of adapting/modification that takes place when I do them.

If you mean "free pass" as in I don't blog about or publicly critique John Mark, then you are mostly correct, though I've explained at least one of the line changes I do for his songs. I have a lot of biases in life, music, ministry and certainly biases towards my friends, and John Mark is that.

However my primary loyalty and devotion is to Jesus and the gospel, so I don't feel bad about changing John Mark's lyrics for my context, but I don't make a point to write a blog post about all of those changes either. So my bias may be clearly evident in what I choose to blog about, but I don't think it's hypocrisy in what I consider theologically sound worship songs. I am however deep in the trenches of sanctification and this blog certainly exposes weaknesses in me both intentionally and unintentionally.

So while I don't necessarily enjoy critique I certainly value and appreciate it. So thank you for pressing me, I need it.

By: Fathands

Fathands — Sat, 23 Apr 2011 15:14:38 +0000

Kyle, Thanks for really looking into these lyrics. However, why not show the same kind of scrutiny to John Mark McMillan's songs? I've seen you literally promote that guy when his songs are saturated with extrabiblical and unbiblical lyrics and imagery. Keep up the good work, but spread that be even-handed in your criticism.

By: Timr

Timr — Sat, 16 Apr 2011 06:41:03 +0000

To be honest, this is pretty dumb (and petty) post. Is this the amount of grace and imagination the writer has? As if Jesus Culture actually espouses some sort of works gospel? Gve us all a break from overbearing theological nitpicking! Could it just be that the Songqwiter was saying, “I feel your love and that is all I need”? The pure gift of God’s love is a wonderful reward in an of itself… Not an earned reward, but a freely given one. If anything discredits Christianity in the eyes of an unbeliever, this blog would do it more than the song lyric.

By: John

John — Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:04:12 +0000

Our reward for seeking God is him. So, in that sense, his love is our reward.

By: GuestDefender

GuestDefender — Thu, 14 Apr 2011 04:55:18 +0000

How do you get all that out of one word choice?? We don't earn anything by works but yet Jesus still speaks of rewards. She is just expressing how much God's love is a reward, deserved or undeserved. This is a perfect example of a critical spirit, border-line religious spirit. You can take so many words, especially in the american english language and flip and put in/out of all kinds of different contexts. Your evaluation should include exactly what the bible says about testing whether speaking (and singing can go in hand with this) is from God. And though this scripture relates to so-called prophets, a lyricist can be considered a "writing prophet" in such a modern day and time. 1 John 4:1: Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. Then the scripture goes on to say how you identify whether that spirit is from God. Jesus Culture and its artists pass the test. Now stop being critical because you want to play on words. So narrow!

By: moneyministry

moneyministry — Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:26:42 +0000

Commercialized, monetized ministry is not God's way.

By: Jry Socas

Jry Socas — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:57:39 +0000

But now that I read David's post below, I'm able to see how the lyrics can be reconciled with Scripture.

By: Jry Socas

Jry Socas — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:54:03 +0000

reward*

By: Jry Socas

Jry Socas — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 04:53:38 +0000

I think that they probably misused the word "reword" when they probably meant to say "prize"

By: Kyle Campos

Kyle Campos — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:41:24 +0000

Thanks Phillip. Yeah this post certainly set off a firestorm of opinions. But I think you nailed it, the important thing is we submit ourselves to the scripture and think about our lyrics in that context. We won't always end up in the same place but that's ok.

By: Phillip Dingler

Phillip Dingler — Fri, 04 Mar 2011 02:49:18 +0000

I just got around to reading this. Great topic Kyle, it really made me think. I can agree and disagree with things posted here. Also, I realize I need to study the Bible more! Thanks for giving me a gut check about not just singing lyrics but understanding them.

By: yeshualovesme

yeshualovesme — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 08:10:09 +0000

I had more issue singing, "We are your burning ones" – which is referenced in scripture as Seraphim. I thing people would take issue with that lyric in the church I attend.

By: yeshualovesme

yeshualovesme — Thu, 17 Feb 2011 08:05:08 +0000

But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
~Deuteronomy 32:9

By: Ben Burdette

Ben Burdette — Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:11:54 +0000

I would agree that this song is more meat than milk. I think the problem that we are facing is that there are too many in the church that cannot take meat, so we give them milk to sustain them. There has to be a point where, like when feeding a child, we have to introduce more and more solid food so that they can actually grow. Jesus Culture is one of the forerunners in a growing movement of Christians (primarily youth/young adult) that have consecrated themselves to a passionate, sustained and unrelenting pursuit of deeper relationship with God. Other similar groups are OneThing, The Call and The RAMP. Burning Ones is written as sort of an anthem for that pursuit, so it really is a meat song. I can see where it could cause confusion if used as an evangelistic tool.