Earlier I posted a video of a new song from Jesus Culture called “Burning Ones.” I really dug the vibe of the song and thought the melody was really cool. This past week I started evaluating it to see if we’d do it in service and step 1 of evaluation was writing down the lyrics. Verse 1 was kind of innocuous.
Here inside your presence I’m taken by the wonder of You
Here inside your glory we give our lives wholly to You
Moved on to the pre-chorus which was a simple “Holy, Holy are You” which was good and all. But then I hit Verse 2…
Your love it burns inside our hearts are satisfied by You
Your love is our reward it’s why we ask for more of You
What?!?! God’s love is our reward? Let’s look at the definition of reward to make sure we are on the same page here:
reward: “a recompense for worthy acts or retribution for wrongdoing” or “fair return for good or bad behavior”
It seems entirely ridiculous to me we’d have to dive into this much for us not to see the foolishness in this line. This isn’t extra-biblical this is entirely contra-biblical. It violates the core of the gospel. I don’t like to rant, but folks this line is simply not truth, and I’m shocked and saddened that it would be sung. Here’s what the gospel says about our reward for our actions:
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
So our just reward for our actions and fair return for our behavior is death, not God’s love. But the glory of the gospel is the cross, “where sin increased, grace abounded all the more”. We received grace instead of what we deserved, death. Here’s how God’s love really works:
Romans 5:6-10 “For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person–though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die–8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.”
We did not and cannot earn God’s love, repeat, we did not and cannot earn God’s love. 1 John 4:19 “We love because he first loved us.” We can keep plowing through scripture, there is no shortage because it’s the entire narrative of the gospel.
I don’t know Chris Quilala, I don’t know Kim Walker, but I believe they are Christians brothers and sisters who love Jesus and I don’t mean to bash them. In fact I bet you if I asked them, “do you think you earned God’s love or did he love you first, while you were a sinner?” That they’d answer, “no, I didn’t earn it.” Which is why I’m so puzzled that they’d sing just the opposite.
I’ve tried to think of any context that line works in and I can’t, I just can’t. Working in the second half of the line only confuses me more, “that’s why we ask for more of You.” I haven’t a clue what this line means. If anyone has an explanation by all means step in here in the comments and let me in on it, I truly feel like I’m missing something.
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well said… interesting take. I appreciate those, like you, who really comb through lyrics for what shouldn't be there. Thank you for your diligence.
Thanks Mandy.
I think the lyric is "Your love is all we want." I saw it that way on another site. He doesn't say it very clearly on the recording, but it makes more sense with the rest of the line. "Your love is all we want, it's why we ask for more of You."
I'm not trying to justify it, but it could be saying that nothing else is needed but the love of God. It is offered freely and not revoked if we fall short, but the writer here seems to be saying that there is no greater reward — no greater experience. He/she's not looking for fame or wealth or anything else but the love of God.
Just a thought.
Yeah I tried to go down that path too. But the word "reward" doesn't just poorly communicate that idea, it actively works against it. At the very least I'd hope when reviewing the song lyrics they'd say, "this line is dangerously convoluted, let's find a better way of stating this." It's important for us to do that in our imagery and certainly important when making declarations like this.
I think that they probably misused the word "reword" when they probably meant to say "prize"
reward*
But now that I read David's post below, I'm able to see how the lyrics can be reconciled with Scripture.
Hmm, was that a Jesus Culture site? I've asked several others about the lyric and they all agreed it was "reward" I even looked at the video in slow motion and his mouth appears to say reward as well. Maybe that other site altered the lyric (for good reason), though the second half of the line would still make the first half weird at the very least. God doesn't increase his love for us over time after we ask for more.
That being said, I'd love to see a liner note.
I don't think it was a Jesus Culture site, but I can't find it now for the life of me. Either way, it's a good substitute. If you like the song, but not that line, just change it. Our worship team has done that several times – 'cause I totally agree about not using lyrics that aren't biblical.
God doesn't increase his love for us if we ask for more, but the line doesn't say "ask for more of Your love." It says "more of You." If God's love is all I want, I ask for more of Him – more of His presence, more of the knowledge of Him, etc.
I'm feelin' what Ben is saying too. People live for different things, and it can often seem like – as Christians – we're living for nothing. We don't esteem riches or fame, and the life of faith is often an up-hill battle. We don't earn God's love, but it's what we're living for. The dictionary definition of "reward" makes it a less than ideal word, but he may be using it in that sense: of a final prize, end result, goal, etc.
I am all about analyzing lyrics and there are songs that I love 95% of but I won't lead worship them because of a couple of lyrics. For instance in Deliver Me, Crowder says "now that you're here, now that I've found you…" I can actually twist that around to make sense in my head, but from the surface lyric I think to myself, we didn't find God…He wasn't lost, we were. It's nitpicky, perhaps, but there are plenty of other song options out there so it's not a big deal to scratch that one from the stage.
That to say, I agree with what you've written about and why you've written, but I'm not sure the way you wrote it is as edifying as it could have been. I think you could have stated your case without going on such a rant. No offense intended.
Peace.
I tried to be clear and demonstrate the importance of the issue while not attacking the writer or their church. Because I love those guys as brothers and they do a lot of great stuff for the kingdom. So if my critique of their song came across as brash or cold, that was not my intention. I think it's important to clarify the gospel, reiterate truth and critique our music to see if it is demonstrating and articulating the gospel well or not. But I agree with you that it should be done in an edifying way. So where I have failed in that, I ask for forgiveness and pray it's covered by grace.
Huh – I didn't read it that way at all – I thought what Kyle said was appropriate and without meanness, etc.
In fact, I would say that ALL worship songwriters need to be held to something like this – we are basically writing prayers for people to sing, and paraphrases of the Bible. It's imperative that both be theologically sound!
Perhaps I misread. To me, even the title alone seems to be a direct attack versus a general commentary. However, I can see how the title is simply being used to get attention and that isn't necessarily a bad thing with this subject matter. Again, I mean no offense.
A worship leader who I like a lot said something recently along the lines of "What if your songs are the only Truth they hear? How deep would your people be?" Just another way to reiterate that we do need to be sound in our lyrical theology.
I'm not attacking Jesus Culture but I am holding them accountable, because it's their lyric. That's the reason they appear in the title. Maybe a subtle difference, but an important one I think as it speaks to the heart and purpose of the discussion.
Jason… Jeremiah 29:13 says: "You will seek Me and find Me when you seek Me with all of your heart." God was never lost, but we were… and we had to find HIM and then keep seeking Him with ALL of our heart.
I think these remarks to another mans inner experience and the painting of it, lacks intimacey. To say that God loves us first is true. To say that we love God is true.To say that we can not even love God without first experiencing his love for us is a deeper understanding of truth.To say that our reward for allowing God to love us-enter into it ,and to respond with love to him,is to receive more of God's love is profound and can only be said by those who have walked in the endless cycle . To pear into a small section of this cycle can look like the reward of a lover is to be able to love and be loved an even deeper truth Maybe it would have greater value to persue your own experiences deeper in the lord!
A corporate worship song context is not one man's “inner experience”. If that's the intended context then the song should be sung in that man's closet and not with the church.A common thread of defense in this blog thread is saying the person who just “doesn't get it” obviously has a shallow walk with the Lord. I can't imagine a more arrogant position. I may very well be wrong in my perspective, my opinion is certainly not infallible, but please, spare me the “you haven't gone deep enough” bit.
I'd like to see their response to this…
Dear Kyle,
I appreciate your heart, bro, but I think you're making much ado about nothing. In Gen. 15, God tells Abraham, "I am your very great reward" (v. 1). According to the definition you posted, Abraham didn't earn God through works and so on. Besides, this time it was God himself saying the he is the reward. I'm a worship leader and lyrics matter to me very much, but we have to also keep in mind how words are used in common venues today. Granted, a lot of words get used for something other than what they mean (Example: one of our young adults paid me a compliment by saying that my guitar solo was "sick", meaning "awesome; good".). I think "reward" is used this way in this song. I think it's intended to mean something like "treasure", or even saying to God, "You are worth it; you're love is worth it." I think we should cut them some slack and trust the Lord to let them know what He wants or doesn't. He's a lot better at it.
VERY well said Sacredfly! Totally agree!
Wow, I had N-E-V-E-R! seen that in the Bible! I just checked it out. You know I totally agreed with what Kylie said earlier, I mean, who are we to say we he’s our reward, like we deserve God for being so good. But now, after seeing this, I’m amazed. God said ”
I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.” I am humbled….
Greetings! All I want to say here is let's not depend on Genesis 15:1 too much. The translation of the original Hebrew is actually highly debatable. Other reputable translations have "Your reward shall be very great" – and for good reason. The Hebrew word "reward" is indeed there, but as noted above, the word connotes wage, earning, or due given for something done. It is problematic to describe God as a reward, and it's even more problematic went you consider that nowhere in the Bible (feel free to check!) is there the concept of God being our reward. Having said that, I do understand and agree with your (Sacredfly) point that the word "reward" can mean a different thing like "treasure." There is liberty in word choice when it comes to songwriting. All I'm saying is that you cannot entirely use Genesis 15:1 to back up your thought. Otherwise, God bless and press on!
Greetings! All I want to say here is let's not depend on Genesis 15:1 too much. The translation of the original Hebrew is actually highly debatable. Other reputable translations have "Your reward shall be very great" – and for good reason. The Hebrew word "reward" is indeed there, but as noted above, the word connotes wage, earning, or due given for something done. It is problematic to describe God as a reward, and it's even more problematic went you consider that nowhere in the Bible (feel free to check!) is there the explicit concept of God being our reward. Having said that, I do understand and agree with your (Sacredfly) point that the word "reward" can mean a different thing like "treasure." There is liberty in word choice when it comes to songwriting. All I'm saying is that you cannot entirely use Genesis 15:1 to back up your thought. Otherwise, God bless and press on!
Great discussion.
As Sacredfly mentioned, there are times in the Bible where God talks about both being our reward, but also giving reward for those who serve Him. (Matt 6:18, John 12:26, James 1:12 especially, all the while acknowledging translation issues with how these verses appear).
I think the line is digging into a truth that God loving us is such a reward. And use of the word reward is prevalent in some translations and not others. It can all help to throw fresh perspective on God's Word. When I write, I try to read as many translations of the Bible as possible – to broaden any preconceptions I might have about a verse.
Even the definition of reward you've given, implies it is fair for what's been done. However, my personal view of the word is merely just that it is return – fair or unfair. Different dictionaries will back up that view too (eg: 3. something received in return for good or evil – Collins Essential English Dictionary), which is also from a dictionary, is less clear cut as to whether it is fair. (1/2)
(2/2)
Language, especially English, isn't clear – and I applaud Jesus Culture for sometimes using words/phrases which feel a bit uncomfortable, but each time I've dug into the Word, I've found substantiation for what the lyric has been. I'm all for being held accountable for lyrics, as long as it also comes with being open to understanding we might have preconceptions over what a word means that might not necessarily be the full meaning.
When it opens up discussions like this, I think that is a great thing. The parables of Jesus did that – not all who heard understood, but by rightly dividing the Word of truth, we can reveal that truth.
Sorry…that was REALLY long…hence the split….eeek!
Let's refer to God speaking to the father of our faith:
Genesis 15:1 which says, “…Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your EXCEEDINGLY GREAT REWARD.” I love God's Word. It's so clear and precise. "God is Love" so love is our exceedingly… great… reward. Those are words to breakdown, marinate, and chew on. Use the "Strong's" online, if needed.
Love the site,
Shaun Smith
"In all your getting, get understanding."
Thanks for the comment Shaun,
A couple comments have referenced this scripture so hopefully this can touch on both comments. Genesis 15 is the detailing of God's covenant with Abram. In the literal translations (ESV for example) Gen 15:1 reads:
"…I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
And Abram questions God as to what his gift is (v2) and God goes on to explain his gift of many children to Abram(v4-6). So the context here is Abram's blood line and fulfillment of God's promise. So I'd say the use of this scripture in reference to the song(love) is misplaced.
I think we can all agree(I hope) that God's love for Abram pre-existed Gen 15:1, didn't God's calling in chapter 12 and his promise to bless Abram show God's love? Or even in the formation of the womb?
Here's the point I'm trying to make, God's love for us is not based off of merit. It's based on God and his grace alone. No amount of "good" living can earn it or increase it. Paul refers to Jesus as our "prize" and that is so true, but our prize Jesus and his love are a gift. The prize is given not earned, which should make us all exceedingly thankful, otherwise we'd be in BIG trouble.
That distinction is important and I think the word "reward" at the very least blurs that distinction. If we're having to say "hey look at the 3rd definition of reward, that's what I meant" then I think as songwriters we should say that's sufficiently ambiguous to deserve a rewrite.
There are plenty of examples of the usage of "reward" in scripture, Samuel(2 Samuel 22) talks about it, the Psalms(Psalm 18) talk about it, but not in context to God's love.
I think the meaning they were trying to communicate was 'your love is all I want'
but…
I agree with your assessment, and I wouldn't bother 'fixing it' . I generally lean towards 'just don't do the song'. I feel life is too short, there are so many songs and correcting a song can seem as a implied approval of the song especially to others who also want to do the song but haven't fixed it.
just my 2 cents
Found the same lyric in a poem/ prayer inside of a Roman Catholic churches newsletter.
The Greatest Gift we’ve ever known
Is faith in You, dear Lord;
We’re thankful for all You have done,
Your love is our Reward.
And as we gather here dear Lord,
Your Spirit’s here we pray;
To join with us in sweet accord
By blessing us this day.
(by Frank Dunne)
Really appreciate the discussion going on here. Thanks for pressing us to really think sharply about what we sing Kyle, I really value it. I'll try and keep it brief and my thoughts are not perfectly formed yet so apologies if they are a bit raw.
Rather than focusing on the use of "reward" in the lyric I think another question is what the author means by "your love". I agree with you Kyle, in the context you use it the love of God in salvation is a free gift and absolutely not a reward. But I also think the love of God is much more than that and the author of the song might be talking about something different. Elsewhere Paul mentions, For those who love God, all things work together for the good(Rom. 8:28). So it would seem that there are forms of God's love that can be rewards. In this instance it requires our love of Him in order for us to experience His love of working things for the good.
The context of the song might be focused on something related to this type of love. It's not mentioning the work of God's unconditional love but a response to that work. The language of the song is a people experiencing the glory of God, satisfied by God who are already burning with passion for Him. So for the second verse I see the author saying the forms of conditional love which God gives is what that we get from being His burning ones and we know that to be the most amazing soul-satisfying thing we could have so that's why we ask for more of Him. In short, our pursuing God is rewarded by the experience of His love because when we seek Him we will find him and God is love.
I read a related article by John Piper a while back on this topic, you can find it here: http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/1645_is_gods_love…
Hope that makes some sense.
I totally agree. I'm 100% sure it's unintentional but it's a reminder that we need to put extreme care into the theology of our lyrics.
But I don't understand how you can point this out and give John Mark McMillan a free pass for the "How He Loves" lyric, "We are His portion". I don't care what the poetic meaning is – the literal meaning is also un-Biblical as God doesn't need us at all. We don't satisfy and type of need He has as He is complete within Himself. It's the same thing as "Burning Ones" – not intended to be bad theology but it is…
Hey Jeff,
Appreciate your comment. If you mean "free pass" as in I don't critique or evaluate John Mark's song the same as others then I'd say that's not the case. Every John Mark song I sing in church, and there are a lot, I put through the same evaluation process as any other song. I change *a lot* of his lyrics to adapt for corporate worship (including the line you mention), some songs I don't sing entire verses that I think are confusing are just not helpful in corporate worship. Remember he doesn't record corporate worship albums, so there's a lot of adapting/modification that takes place when I do them.
If you mean "free pass" as in I don't blog about or publicly critique John Mark, then you are mostly correct, though I've explained at least one of the line changes I do for his songs. I have a lot of biases in life, music, ministry and certainly biases towards my friends, and John Mark is that.
However my primary loyalty and devotion is to Jesus and the gospel, so I don't feel bad about changing John Mark's lyrics for my context, but I don't make a point to write a blog post about all of those changes either. So my bias may be clearly evident in what I choose to blog about, but I don't think it's hypocrisy of what I consider theologically sound worship songs. I am however deep in the trenches of sanctification and this blog certainly exposes weaknesses in me both intentionally and unintentionally.
So while I don't necessarily enjoy critique I certainly value and appreciate it. So thank you for pressing me, I need it.
Hey Jeff,
Appreciate your comment. If you mean "free pass" as in I don't critique or evaluate John Mark's song the same as others then I'd say that's not the case. Every John Mark song I sing in church, and there are a lot, I put through the same evaluation process as any other song. I change *a lot* of his lyrics to adapt for corporate worship (including the line you mention), some songs I don't sing entire verses that I think are confusing are just not helpful in corporate worship. Remember he doesn't record corporate worship albums, so there's a lot of adapting/modification that takes place when I do them.
If you mean "free pass" as in I don't blog about or publicly critique John Mark, then you are mostly correct, though I've explained at least one of the line changes I do for his songs. I have a lot of biases in life, music, ministry and certainly biases towards my friends, and John Mark is that.
However my primary loyalty and devotion is to Jesus and the gospel, so I don't feel bad about changing John Mark's lyrics for my context, but I don't make a point to write a blog post about all of those changes either. So my bias may be clearly evident in what I choose to blog about, but I don't think it's hypocrisy in what I consider theologically sound worship songs. I am however deep in the trenches of sanctification and this blog certainly exposes weaknesses in me both intentionally and unintentionally.
So while I don't necessarily enjoy critique I certainly value and appreciate it. So thank you for pressing me, I need it.
But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
~Deuteronomy 32:9
I think what we you are discussing here is not a peripheral issue theologically it is an issue of first importance. "For God so loved that he GAVE"; "The wages of sin is death but the gift of God"
If in some way we view God's love as rewarded, deserved, or earned through works, worship, or religious activity then we are displaying the wrong message. I think we should never in our messages, music, and media display a message that undermines gospel truth. I think artistic liberty when it comes to primary issues should be clear. If we have to go to this much trouble to explain/justify a line in a song then is it worth it? I think that if the song is done there would need to be a huge amount of time to clarify terms and meanings and I do not think that any would take to time to do it… Even if he did mean something entirely different, which i do not see, I think it is not worth the lengthy explanation. The cost is to high to sing a song where people would see God's love as a reward and not as a gift so undeserved.
Just my thoughts I am coming in late but I thank God for a worship leader like you kyle who cares about art submitted to the authority of scripture. Art should never usurp the authority of scripture.
Hey Kyle – thanks for your thoughtful, honest, and gracious answer. I appreciate you and this conversation (these kinds of important topics don’t come up often enough in the blogosphere!).
The big question I still have with the line in “How He Loves” is if there’s ANY context in which the line “We are His portion” isn’t theologically incorrect.
I guess what I’m looking for is a more thoughtful answer than “it’s poetic”, which isn’t really an explanation (‘not trying to be facetious).
It’s bothered for a while that everybody changes the “sloppy wet kiss” line (which isn’t really theological issue) but doesn’t seem to care about the theological issues with “We are His portion”…
Honestly, I only have a second to reply… but maybe it's a reference to Jesus' kingdom parables? I am not familiar with the song, but in the gospels, Jesus uses the image of reward — not as something that is earned, but as something that is graciously received.
Hey, just to throw this out to you but Isaiah 40:10 and 62:11 say God comes and His reward is with Him. There is no reward apart from Him. His reward is "with Him." What do you think is His reward? I think when you and I get Him, we get everything that He has. Do you think we are striving for a crown? Is that really what you are after? How trivial! Is heaven gold streets and mansions? Heaven is being with God. But God is love and peace and so much more. God has opened the community that He has known within the Godhead throughout eternity to us. We can experience all that God is. I say that is a reward, and the best kind at that.
That threw up a red flag for me too… The only one I could find was Deut 32:9- 'For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.' Obviously referring to Israel in that context. But could mean that we as the church are his devoted portion of the human race… I guess…
Yeah, and sloppy wet kiss is weird. Even if it's correct, kind of distracting imagery for worship.
But on the subject at hand, totally agree. Reward doesn't bother me as much as His love specifically being it. God loved the world and gave his Son whil we were sinners. The reward is abundant life and restored relationship. I'm just going to pass on the song. I have more great new music than I know what to do with.
good take. lots of tunes out there…
First of all, thank you for the encouragement I am receiving from this. It is such a blessing to see so many worship leaders wrestling with these kinds of issues, and though not all in 100% agreement, there is still a central unity amongst us all, and everyone seems to have an edifying intent. That is a definite light shining bright, and on a subject where great division and argument could certainly take place. AWESOME!
Regarding being His portion, I'm not entirely sure we can stamp this as theologically incorrect, though it may be a bit confusing. If you define portion as if we are giving something to Jesus, then you are correct… He is 100% complete and satisfied in the triune existence of God. However, if you take it in the context of the portion being something that is alloted to Jesus from God the Father, then we are indeed His portion… simply not a portion that we are giving to Him, but the Father. As Phil. 2 states, He will be exalted to the highest place and every knee will bow at His name (paraphrase). It also states multiple times that the Father beckons us unto Jesus, and Jesus enables us to be in relationship with the Father. So as a part of His kingdom, with Him being the King, we are a portion that is "given" unto Him.
In this context this line is theologically fine, if not great, seeing that we are bought with a price and will serve in His kingdom, but never by means of us earning it… making it all the more beautiful.
I hope this offers some perspective on the matter and that it is encouraging. Also, keep wrestling for the glory of God!
Josh,
Appreciate your perspective and really diligent biblical explanation. Your secondary perspective on the lyric certainly makes sense in light of Jesus saying he won't reject any the Father has brought to him(John 6:37). These types of lyrics are tough where you have 5 syllables to try and explain something that's taken this blog thousands of words to wrestle with.
Thanks again, really appreciate it
If we believe the Bible is the infallible word of God, then there does not take any more than one Biblical reference to make a concept Biblical. Deuteronomy 32:9 does say "For the LORD'S portion is His people", thus making it a Biblical concept.
In the Bible, portion is used as a synonym for inheritance. There are many occasions where it states that we are God's (or Jesus', rather) inheritance.
Psalm 2:8 "Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession."
Psalm 28:9 "Save Your people and bless Your inheritance ; Be their shepherd also, and carry them forever ."
Psalm 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, The people whom He has chosen for His own inheritance."
Psalm 68:9 "You shed abroad a plentiful rain, O God ; You confirmed Your inheritance when it was parched."
Psalm 74:2, Psalm 78:62, Psalm 78:71, Psalm 79:1, Psalm 94:14, Psalm 106:5 , Psalm 106:40, Isaiah 19:25, Jeremiah 2:7, Jeremiah 10:16, Jeremiah 16:8, Jeremiah 17:4, Jeremiah 51:19, Joel 3:2, Ephesians 1:18
(1/2)
My recent post The Power of a Word
Regarding the original topic of your post, I think you misunderstand the context of the song "Burning Ones". It is a song of the redeemed, not of the sinner. It is the cry of the Christian who wants to take his relationship with Jesus to deeper and deeper levels. Pay attention to the Lyrics:
Here inside Your presence, taken by the wonder of You
Here inside Your Glory, we give our lives fully to You
We cry Holy, Holy are You
Love that burns inside,, our hears are satisfied by You
Your love is our reward, that's why we ask for more of You
Holy, Holy, Holy are You
Our hearts are burning, burning for you
We are your burning ones, we are consumed by you
We Set our lives apart, we are consumed by you
So let this love be like a fire, let our lives be like a flame
Fill our souls with Your desire, let our passion bring you fame
If you pull "Your love is our reward" out and let it stand alone, it fails because it is taken out of context. Certainly there is nothing we can or cannot do that makes us deserve His love. However, taken in the context of the song, it certainly works. Chris uses "Your love" in the same way he uses "Your desire". It is not indicative of His love for us, but rather, His love IN us.
Romans 5:1-5 says "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand ; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance ; 4 and perseverance, proven character ; and proven character, hope ; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. "
Notice a couple things here. "Having been justified by faith" meaning ones already justified by faith. Then verse 5 says " because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts". According to this passage, the love of God being poured out in our hearts is a result of tribulation, perseverance, character and hope.
Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 14:1 "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. " If God's love in us is freely given, why do we need to pursue it?
Likewise, Peter writes in 2 Peter 1:2-8 "Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord ; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
So in this passage, Peter says there is a pursuit of the divine nature (love). With diligence we are to pursue faith, then moral excellence, then knowledge, then self control, then perseverance, then godliness, then brotherly kindness, then LOVE. So to get His love, there is a pursuit, or a race. In every race, there is a prize. A prize is a reward.
1 Corinthians 9:24 "Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize ? Run in such a way that you may win."
Philippians 3:14 "I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus."
Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,"
Not His love FOR us. His love IN us.
(2/2)
My recent post The Power of a Word
blast! I had a long reply to this and it errored on posting…I'll take another crack at it when I'm not so annoyed at WordPress!
Thanks for your thoughts, will respond shortly
Ben, your statement here is puzzling:
"Paul also says in 1 Corinthians 14:1 "Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. " If God's love in us is freely given, why do we need to pursue it? "
WOW, where to start. First off, Paul's context is admonishing the church (already saved and loved by God) to use spiritual gifts and view them properly. "Of these the greatest is love" (1 Cor. 13:13) Not that they need to hunt down God's love for them. They already have it, operate in it, enjoy it, and so does Paul.
Secondly, if anyone in scripture is an example of God loving them first and not pursuing God's love it was Paul. Paul was busy murdering and Christians and hating God when God intervened and poured out his love upon Paul.
Thirdly, If you don't believe God's love was freely given to us I'm not sure I can count the amount of verses you have to ignore. All of those I included in my post, Romans 5, Ephesians 1…I mean the list goes on. Christ loved us FIRST, it doesn't get any clearer than 1 John 4:19, "We love because Christ first loved us."
That's what all this boils down to. Who pursued whom first. God chose us(predestined us for adoption before the foundations of the world), he pursued us, he died for us while we were sinners. Thanks be to God that is the case else none of use would ever experience the love of God.
We are only able to enjoy the love of God and "pursue" Christ because he first loved us. Without that we're dead in our sin.
Kyle, I appreciate your response, but you are still missing my point, though you actually made it for me. I used 1 Corinthians 14:1 as an example BECAUSE it was directed at believers who had already received the free gift of God's love. When Paul was speaking here, he was talking about God's love in us and through us and NOT God's love for us. God's love is something that is free, but to have that love active in your life and shining through you is VERY expensive and must be pursued. Hence, "pursue love". Likewise, when Chris wrote "Your love is our reward, that's why we ask for more of You" he is referring to God's love IN us and not God's love FOR us.
Ah I see the point you are trying to make now, sorry I missed it. The problem for me at this point becomes, I'm not making any judgment on the writers intention or inspiration. I don't know Chris' theology outside of what the song communicates.
So at this point I'd say the lyric is at best dangerously vague if it needs this kind of preamble to put it in context. It's sufficiently vague to require a rewrite. If I had written this song and brought it to my pastor for checking, he would have questioned this lyric and if I had to go through all this to explain I would have said…you know what…I should probably find a better way to say this because it could lead some down a very wrong path.
Thanks for your thoughts, sorry I misunderstood.
I would agree that this song is more meat than milk. I think the problem that we are facing is that there are too many in the church that cannot take meat, so we give them milk to sustain them. There has to be a point where, like when feeding a child, we have to introduce more and more solid food so that they can actually grow. Jesus Culture is one of the forerunners in a growing movement of Christians (primarily youth/young adult) that have consecrated themselves to a passionate, sustained and unrelenting pursuit of deeper relationship with God. Other similar groups are OneThing, The Call and The RAMP. Burning Ones is written as sort of an anthem for that pursuit, so it really is a meat song. I can see where it could cause confusion if used as an evangelistic tool.
I think the last part of that line sums up the thought of "reward". We ask for more and more and more and more of God because he gives us unfailing love! To me that's pretty rewarding. I don't know of any worship songs that sing of gloom and doom and the wages of our sins is death. As a writer, my goal is to write so that it's easy to sing, easy to relate to, is accurate with scripture, and good. Good is that hard part! All that said, sometimes a writer will put a spin on a word and make it pop. I love the line of "Your love is our reward, it's why we ask for more of you". To me it is very accurate. Taken out of context, I see your beef with it. But take it in the context that the writer was placing it in and then it means something special.
Question: You're a sinner, know you're a sinner, and know that the wages of your sins are death. Without asking for God' mercy, your reward is hell. But when you ask for God's mercy, and receive salvation through Christ, isn't your reward "love"?
I don't think I took it out of context. At the very least the context is vague and confusing. I'm not sure what you mean by you don't know of any worship songs that sing of "gloom and doom" of sin. I really hope that's not true, but really sad if it is. We can't understand God's love for us unless we understand the depth of our sin and depravity.
To answer to your question. No, scripture is adamant that God's love is his undeserved gift, *not* reward. He loved us *while* we we sinners, dead in our sin. See the scripture references in the post. But because of his undeserved love he died for us and brought us to life. Not because of any works, so that you cannot boast. If the song said, "heaven is our reward" that would make more sense. But you can't juxtapose hell and God's love like you did in your question.
Thanks for the thoughts, appreciate them.
I didn't get the chance to dive into all the comments here, so maybe it's already been said…but what about the legality of changing lyrics? In the case of DC*B changing JMM's "How He Loves," David called Jon up directly and got permission (and I assume then followed by the proper legal agreements.)
What's your take on this?
Cheers.
sorry, not asking for your take on the "How He Loves" lyrics, but the legality of changing "Burning Ones."
Just as a different perspective (a long time after your original post…but never mind) we've had Shirley Carpenter teaching us over the last few weeks and she's been speaking of the difference between the grace we are given freely and the grace we "grow" in, just as Jesus did. We are to grow in favor, like Jesus did (Paul wrote of growing in grace, and it being multiplied). If you choose to cultivate relationship with God so that you spend more time with Him and be diligent in seeking Him, you WILL grow in favor with God. Not only that, we will grow to love Him more closely and we also will encounter His love in a more rich way. Looking at it from that perspective, I think it's reasonable to conclude that the more time spent on God, the more we seek Him for more of Him, the more love we have access to…because of where WE are positionally. "Your love is our reward, that's why we ask for more of YOU."
There are other definitions of "reward" I think you should consider. For example, the root meaning is "to take notice of", but it also means: blessing, honor, advantage, and in terms of specific definitions, psychology defines reward as "any pleasant event that follows a response and therefore increases the likelihood of the response recurring in the future", a satisfying return or profit, or to satisfy or gratify. If Jesus' love satisfies you, you have been rewarded. If you see it as a blessing or an honor or an advantage, then you are seeing it as a reward. The concept of reward you're talking about is common, but it is extremely narrow.
My recent post convicted in the wilderness?
Above you criticize Jesus Culture for saying “Your love is our reward”. I think you need to think a little more when you nitpick people. Especially when considering worship lyrics. If you would have taken a little time you could have thought of probably 100 scriptures that seek to motivate us by rewards both in this life and after. Jesus says in Matthew 5:12 that we should rejoice because our “reward” is in heaven for instance.
If you really consider the context he is saying God all we want is You. Although the Jesus Culture leaders are a little charismatic for my beliefs I clearly see them writing lyrics inspiring me to have a pure DESIRE FOR JESUS instead of things He provides. That was the point in the above lyric Do not give us rewards just give us YOU.
Soccerman,
I have no problem being corrected by scripture, I invite it. But you've not provided any biblical reference for the point I made, you just made a different point. Heaven as a reward is not the same as God's love as our reward. Heaven is conditional based on persevering faith. God's love is unconditional, it's not based on any of our actions either positive or negative, in fact it pre-exists either of them -> Ephesians 1:3-5
[Spiritual Blessings in Christ]
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will…
(Ephesians 1:3-4; Ephesians 1:5 ESV)
Your simplification of the lyric to "Do not give us rewards just give us YOU" is fine and dandy but it's not at all what the song says. That's why clarity in song lyric is so important. You may boil it down to that, but I sure don't, it's basically the opposite of what he said.
If you have some other verses that you think show I'm off my rocker, please provide.
Thanks for commenting
There really is dozens of scriptures that could be provided. Here is one…
Genesis 15:1: “After this, the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision: “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward
So God is our reward so saying an attribute of God is our reward is not incorrect.
I did not "simplify" the lyrics I simpley followed the song and could understand what he was saying with ease. He is clearly describing a situation where he is seeking God and has a moment where he is overwelmed with the prescence of God. He is crying out our for more of Him and saying "He is what I want". You on the other hand have turned it to an attack on justification by faith alone. HAHAHA! By the way teachers are judged more strictly(james 3:1). Of course that does not mean there are not standards for worship lyrics but come on!!!! "Your love is our reward it’s why we ask for more of You". You have to be kidding me! LOL . The guy is crying out in surrender to GOD and you are finding fault with him. Spend a little time I am sure you can find some better Jesus Culture stuff to attack.
Please see previous comments on Genesis 15:1, it can't be used as a proof text. The context is Abram's inheritance and God's love for him is the *reason* he was given an inheritance, not that Abram proved himself worthy of God's love and therefore an inheritance.
I love how critique turns into "attack". If you read the blog post you can clearly see I say I'm not attacking him and I believe he loves Jesus dearly. As worship leaders as songwriters, we open ourselves up to critique because we are broken, sinful people and we don't always sing the right things, we don't always preach the gospel well. So I am not placing myself in no elevated position condemning Jesus Culture. I'm critiquing a lyric that I think AT BEST is vague and confuses the gospel message that God showed his love for us that while we were still sinners he died for us. Not that he showed his love for us as a reward.
Humble followers of Christ receive critique well, prideful folks grow bitter with them. I'm a prideful man desperate for God to continue breaking down my pride and implanting humility and grace.
I had more issue singing, "We are your burning ones" – which is referenced in scripture as Seraphim. I thing people would take issue with that lyric in the church I attend.
I just got around to reading this. Great topic Kyle, it really made me think. I can agree and disagree with things posted here. Also, I realize I need to study the Bible more! Thanks for giving me a gut check about not just singing lyrics but understanding them.
Thanks Phillip. Yeah this post certainly set off a firestorm of opinions. But I think you nailed it, the important thing is we submit ourselves to the scripture and think about our lyrics in that context. We won't always end up in the same place but that's ok.
Commercialized, monetized ministry is not God's way.
How do you get all that out of one word choice?? We don't earn anything by works but yet Jesus still speaks of rewards. She is just expressing how much God's love is a reward, deserved or undeserved. This is a perfect example of a critical spirit, border-line religious spirit. You can take so many words, especially in the american english language and flip and put in/out of all kinds of different contexts. Your evaluation should include exactly what the bible says about testing whether speaking (and singing can go in hand with this) is from God. And though this scripture relates to so-called prophets, a lyricist can be considered a "writing prophet" in such a modern day and time. 1 John 4:1: Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. Then the scripture goes on to say how you identify whether that spirit is from God. Jesus Culture and its artists pass the test. Now stop being critical because you want to play on words. So narrow!
Our reward for seeking God is him. So, in that sense, his love is our reward.
To be honest, this is pretty dumb (and petty) post. Is this the amount of grace and imagination the writer has? As if Jesus Culture actually espouses some sort of works gospel? Gve us all a break from overbearing theological nitpicking! Could it just be that the Songqwiter was saying, “I feel your love and that is all I need”? The pure gift of God’s love is a wonderful reward in an of itself… Not an earned reward, but a freely given one. If anything discredits Christianity in the eyes of an unbeliever, this blog would do it more than the song lyric.
Kyle, Thanks for really looking into these lyrics. However, why not show the same kind of scrutiny to John Mark McMillan's songs? I've seen you literally promote that guy when his songs are saturated with extrabiblical and unbiblical lyrics and imagery. Keep up the good work, but spread that be even-handed in your criticism.
Thanks for the comment. I'd agree there are a lot of extrabiblical lyrics which I don't think is an issue at all for his song writing context. As far as unbiblical or contrabiblical, well I'd need to see specific examples of that. If you are referring to How He Loves then I'd recommend reading my post on that http://www.ourrisingsound.com/2009/09/14/john-mar…
I stand by the scriptures though in all cases of course, our mouths (yours, mine, songwriters) are full of error. We are all in the middle of sanctification and growing in truth so we should all submit ourselves and our language to the scripture at all times.
John Mark recently did a line by line commentary of his song Death In His Grave which I think masterfully brings beautiful poetic language to illuminate the beautiful truth of Jesus death and resurrection. There's a ton of biblical references to support his imagery and I think far too many pass over phrases that are poetic in nature without realizing the biblical weight of the lyric. Check it out: http://johnmarkmcmillan.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/…
Someone actually asked this same thing when I first posted this, saying I gave John Mark a "free pass". Here's how I responded…
Appreciate your comment. If you mean "free pass" as in I don't critique or evaluate John Mark's song the same as others then I'd say that's not the case. Every John Mark song I sing in church, and there are a lot, I put through the same evaluation process as any other song. I change *a lot* of his lyrics to adapt for corporate worship (including the line you mention), some songs I don't sing entire verses that I think are confusing are just not helpful in corporate worship. Remember he doesn't record corporate worship albums, so there's a lot of adapting/modification that takes place when I do them.
If you mean "free pass" as in I don't blog about or publicly critique John Mark, then you are mostly correct, though I've explained at least one of the line changes I do for his songs. I have a lot of biases in life, music, ministry and certainly biases towards my friends, and John Mark is that.
However my primary loyalty and devotion is to Jesus and the gospel, so I don't feel bad about changing John Mark's lyrics for my context, but I don't make a point to write a blog post about all of those changes either. So my bias may be clearly evident in what I choose to blog about, but I don't think it's hypocrisy in what I consider theologically sound worship songs. I am however deep in the trenches of sanctification and this blog certainly exposes weaknesses in me both intentionally and unintentionally.
So while I don't necessarily enjoy critique I certainly value and appreciate it. So thank you for pressing me, I need it.
Although 'God is love', we cannot switch this around and say 'love is God'; it isn't true. Love is an attribute of God, one of many attributes: just, holy, righteous, merciful, etc. Searching the Scriptures you will find that every time reward is used it is regarding something done, our works. The NASB translates Gen. 15:1 as "Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.” (NASB). The KJV translates this as “…thy exceeding great reward,” but it is the only place in the Bible that I have found where 'reward' is used this way. Again, every time 'reward' is used it is in the context of according to works done: “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done" (Rev. 22:12).
Therefore, God's love cannot be a reward. It is a free gift of His sovereign choice of unmerited favor–grace–that He loves us. It is of His nature, to express His love–to will the good of the other– toward us. Again, this love is unconditional: it is undeserved, and not a reward. Please don't think this is 'nitpicking': it is the crux of God's motivation for our salvation, "In this way God loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son…" (John 3:16, cf. Eph. 2:8,9).
I don't think that Jesus Culture intended to mislead anyone, but clearly the words of this lyric have not been thought through. Poetic license must submit to the truth of God: “God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth” – Jesus (John 4:24). Let us say what we mean, otherwise it is questionable whether we mean what we say.
An fascinating discussion is worth comment. I feel that it’s best to write more on this topic, it may not be a taboo subject however generally persons are not enough to talk on such topics. To the next. Cheers
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This blog demonstrates, perhaps better than any I've seen lately, why Bible college grads make very bad art and music critics. Impossible to even begin to explain…other than to say, there is a vast universe of literature and poetry that uses the word "reward" in ways your little Dictionary might have missed.
Not. Even. Close.
First, I didn't goto a bible college. Second, the point of the critique is from a biblical perspective, not a poetic perspective, so if you have some biblical literature that proves your point by all means share.
its as easy as looking at the second part of the verse, we arent just given his love, for bieng alive, hence, ''thats why we ask for more of you'' when you ask for more of god, truely and with your heart, he gives you his love,
Read the scriptures in the post. You are right though, we weren't given his love for being alive, He gave it to us when we were *dead* in sin. If you desire and are able to ask for “more of Jesus” it's only because he's already loved you, saved you from death, and given you breath to do so.Now of course there is ongoing relationship, sanctifying work in the believer where we are made more and more in his image, so in that sense I agree of “asking for more” but that does not cause God to bestow his love and grace upon us as a reward, it's *because* he bestowed his love and grace upon us that we make such requests.
I came upon this article today… God's love is freely given. He loves all people as they are, wholly, Holy, perfectly. AGAPE! Our reward is when we figure that out. My wife loves me, but if I never spend time with her, if I never invest in our relationship, I never experience nor understand how much she loves me. What God wants is a relationship where loves is freely given and reciprocated. When we worship we are seeking to both exalt the Lord and to experience His love. Kim Walker talks about this all the time. "There are some of you here who have never experienced His love, His amazing Love…" When we seek God's (love) presence we experience the love so many just talk about (the award).
It's not knowing the name Jesus, it's knowing Jesus
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