September 14 2009
John Mark McMillan discusses David Crowder and “Sloppy Wet Kiss”
Tagged Under : David Crowder, John Mark McMillan, songwriting
Now that David Crowder covered “How He Loves” pretty much everyone in the Christian music scene knows the song, which is great because it’s an incredible song that needs to be heard and sung. Fewer are probably aware that John Mark McMillan wrote the song (not Kim Walker) and that David Crowder changed a lyric that some in the church viewed as somewhat inappropriate. Out of that a silly little Christian controversy over the lyric was created. Here is the original lyric:
“So heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss and my heart turns violently inside of my chest”
David Crowder changed the lyric after consulting with John Mark (which was a really cool thing to do by the way) to this:
“So heaven meets earth like an unforseen kiss and my heart…”
I personally appreciate the original line in its correct context. The people that have issues with it typically take it out of context and that’s too bad. I’ve had numerous exchanges on this blog explaining the context of this lyric and why I do not change it when I sing it.
It’s unfortunate John Mark needed to come out and clarify but I think it was an incredibly humble and mature thing for him to do and he did it very well. You should go read for yourself what John Mark has to say about the “sloppy wet kiss” but here it is simply and succinctly:
The idea behind the lyric is that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of earth converge in a way that is both beautiful and awkwardly messy. Think about the birth of a child, or even the death of Jesus himself. These miracles are both incredibly beautiful and incredibly sloppy (“gory” may be more realistic, but “Heaven meets earth like a gory mess” didn’t seem to have the same ring).
I think it’s a brilliant line that attempts to illustrate the love in God’s sovereignty though many times we fail to see his love in tragedy, it’s there. I love John Mark’s heart for Jesus, I love that he makes us uncomfortable with his lyrics, his songs are a gift to the kingdom but more importantly HE is a gift to the Kingdom.
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I understand the context of the lyric and I think it is brilliant. However for some, "sloppy wet kiss" evokes an image that I am not sure I want to evoke during our congregational worship times. I love the song and enjoy John Mark McMilan's song writing.
One of the 1st times i came to visit LCC we sang this song with its original text and I appreciated the reality of it. Being raised in the church you get a little desensitized. I was in a place in my life where I was extremely prideful and thought i had worship @ this church all figured out. I was singing and reading the next line that said “Sloppy wet Kiss” I snapped back to the moment. I had to double check what I was singing and ponder on why that was even there! I loved it! I loved that worship in this place was not so glossed over that it didnt feel real. It made me really evaluate what was going on in my head. repentance didnt come right from that moment but I know that line was used as a seed in my heart.
I think in today's culture "sloppy wet kiss" just brings to mind or has the potential with most people to bring to mind an image or thought not usually Godly. Whether right or wrong, the risk to lose the whole song or moment over a line that can be easily said differently and have the same effect is not worth it. The song is so good. That is really from a corporate worship standpoint.
That being said, I feel I wholly understand John Mark McMillan's point in using those words, and I feel this song and even that line is probably very personal to him and it's a great line in a song.
That said, DCB plays to the masses, and in my parents church or where I lead worship in my church, that line won't go over corporately. I would even say most church's aren't "deep" enough in their understanding of worship and the arts to really go there. That is not meant to sound critical, you just have to know your audience/worship environment. The song nor its power and beauty is not lost because of this change.
Brenton Brown suggests (and I agree with him) that we shape our congregation's theologies more by the songs that we sing than the messages that we preach. They will remember a worship song far longer than they will remember a sermon. If this is the case, then we as worship leaders have an enormous responsibility to make sure that the songs we sing reflect the theologies we wish to teach.
I don't believe that the fact that our "church's aren't "deep" enough in their understanding of worship and the arts" should make it necessary to to change the words of a great line – which I think we can agree is wonderful imagery. Perhaps all that is needed is some simple context.
Just an opinion! Thanks though. This is very thought provoking.
I look forward to the day when we aren't even phased by lyrics like this. If anyone knows the Hebrew translation of what it means to "know" God, you're not going to bat an eye at stuff like this. The thing is God is more real and natural and organic than our whitewashed American religion can handle. Remember the priests of the old testament with blood on their hands from slaughtering heifers who were holy and consecrated for God, and they smelled like a barbecue gone bad. And these were those who went before the Father so that ordinary men would not die in God's presence. Some people like John Mark have gone there too, but God has rent the veil so there is no reason why we all shouldn't go there too. God made us messy organic creations in His likeness and said it was good. If you still have issues with how God made you, take a number to talk to the great Designer.
Oh, and I have lead the song several times before I knew there was another option, thanks David. The song was mysteriously banned from my list every week I put it on there. Absolutely hilarious to me because of the beauty, anointing, and purity of this song. God help us as artists to have grace on his family and still bring the good stuff.
[...] battles, and it grieves me, and at the same time it makes me angry. The articles are from Our Rising Sound blog and John Mark McMillan’s blog. You see, John Mark wrote a song named “How He [...]
[...] [...]
I think what David Crowder did in toning down the sloppy wet kiss part was helpful because the song, overall, was really nice and brilliantly poetic, but with this phrase, I see at least two problems if it is OK to belabor it a little just for the sake of songwriting. My wife was offended by the song actually. The element that came across as a turn off was that it seemed to reduce the love of Jesus Christ from an infinite agape love beyond human comprehension down to a cheap form of Eros, and part of the problem with society today is our lack of restraint sexually before marriage, and frankly, also within marriage. With all the people going to church and pretending to be Christians while playing the liar and the harlot on their marriages and with all the young people shacking up or doing the friends with benefits thing, I don't think we need to be raising the worship of Eros to the level of a standard we would hope to bring Jesus Christ up to. I know that is a really hard way to say it, and I don't mean to be harsh, critical, and unloving, but rather to pour out some light not as though to accuse or blame anyone for bad intentions, and I most certainly do not want to discourage singers and song writers who in my opinion are awesomely talented and gifted by God. I just feel it is vital to remember when we are dealing with the love of God, it is a love that cannot be compared to an unexpected or a sloppy wet kiss, but rather is told by the suffering Jesus went through on the cross to pay for our sin while we were still yet unfaithful to Him betraying Him with hearts deeply selfish. His love is so much greater than we could ever imagine.
My most favorite line in the song…brings to my mind a loving Father playing around with his children…in the purest sense…with laughter and joy and a 'sloppy wet kiss.' Jesus did say come as a little child…if we keep our thoughts pure, there is no offense.
its such a powerful lyric 'sloppy wet kiss' I even used it in a theology lecture for describing santificacion of sin, went down really well. I think its a beautiful expression of Gods grace.
Bless You all =D
Aaron
I visualize the father running out to meet the prodical son at his return. The tears of joy and sobbing emotion that took place in that embrace would have been a sloppy kiss indeed.
you are an idiot. the song shouldnt be offensive to any Christian. It's people like you that turn Christianity into politics.
Hmm…I don't think the song is necessarily offensive, but I think that response was…
Whether we agree or disagree with Daniel's views, I don't think name-calling when someone is trying to simply explain what they think is going to get us anywhere in this discussion. THAT'S what turns it into politics–acting like the world instead of like brothers in Christ, humbly respecting each other's opinions, even if we don't necessarily agree with them.
I think this song is a case study in total misuse of metaphor. There is no redeeming value to a hurricane – nor drowning. . . and defending "sloppy wet kiss" is beneath the dignity of an argument. What really makes me chuckle is the passion expended to defend what is at best second rate writing.
I absolutely agree. With all of the argument going on regarding the "sloppy kiss," I've wondered if anyone else is just not a fan of the song in general. I was speaking at a discipleship conference when I first heard this song. I knew nothing of the controversy and the band played the Crowder version… but I raised an eyebrow during the first line where the hurricane metaphor was used. Weird. I'll stick with Indelible Grace.
Reminds me of a viewer's comment regarding the new Alice in Wonderland movie: " I didn't like it, it's not what I expected".
I fully agree with you, Dianna. At first, it was an eye opener when I heard that line. But, with a quick thought–this is supposed to be a "Christian Song"–it came to me that, yes, children do that sooooo much—-grungy, little, runny-nosed children are sooooo sincere in their emotions. And, let's face it—a lot of "prim and proper" people don't like those type of kisses from these sweet innocent little beings, so they are going to take offense. But, I want to be like a child unto my Lord, so I'll continue singing this way. And, it's been going over-and-over-and-over in my head for the last two days–so something's really stirring with these words.
Thanks for hearing my opinion.
Yours in Christ,
~Lucy
Randy,
Metaphors by nature work for some people and don't for others. That's just the nature of using imagery in songs. But I'd disagree with your statement on "there's no redeeming value to a hurricane" on a couple fronts.
1. Redemptive value is not inherently found in any object, but rather in the person and work of Jesus. There's no redeeming value to a cross, it's a symbol of imaginable pain and suffering, so much so that it wasn't even discussed in Roman culture. But the redemptive value is found on Jesus' work *on* the cross.
2. There's no damning value to a hurricane either.
As far as second rate writing…well, I'd disagree but that's just a matter of taste.
Well I personally think the song is absolutely amazing. I mean God has chosen to reference the church as a bride all throughout the scripture. The reason for this being he wants this intimate relationship with his church. So how singing and making a reference to "a Sloppy Wet Kiss" would offend someone is hard for me to comprehend.
And the first thing I think of when I hear of people having an issue, is how many times these same people have prayed the prayer God let me become so close to you and in tune with you that people can no longer see where I end and you begin or where you end and I begin. Let us be so intwined and wrapped up in you that we become like one. Well this is a very intimate prayer and statement and most people dont find it offensive. I think we have reached a place in Worship where we are once again transitioning, We have went from singing about him to singing to him and now we are becoming even more intimate. I used this definition once in a sermon on Worship, Worship is falling in love with God all over again….. What does John 3:16 say For God so loved the world…..I dont think this metaphor is cheapening our relationship with God. I think its speaking to us of What a love he has for us and the depths He has went.
"Sloppy wet kiss" reminds me of a dog licking peanut butter from its owner's fingers. The phrase has no place in Sunday morning church music worship; it's more demeaning to the Lord than an artistic expression of worship. DCB is an average band at best, and both the band and McMillan seem to be more interested in wordsmithing and emotional uplifting than double-checking some of their theology. (As does Chris Tomlin, who's all about "the rhyme".)
Please don't get me wrong; these guys fill a niche in Christian music that draws in their audience with their energy and style, and it's great to finally have some decent alternative-type music for a change. I'm not a fan of CCM in the least, and I love music that is creative and original. Ultimately, though, these guys responsible to God for singing about the truth of God – which means that if these guys are "worship leaders", they first need to get their theology straight on. In God's music shop, strong doctrine will trump a pretty ditty every time. If a person, somehow, begins to believe things about God that are not true by listening to (their) worship songs that are more artistic than based on strong biblical truths, these worship leaders have to answer to the Lord. Not a judgment; just a call to remember our priority in worship.
Daniel J., thanks for your insightful comments.
I do not limit myself where music written to bring glory to God is concerned. God has anointed many throughout the generations. I'm open to allowing opinions to be voiced, but I take exception to one who states opinion as fact, when in actuality, that opinion is untruth. After reading your post I reviewed lyrics to many of Chris Tomlin's songs. (I am actually very familiar with them all, but read through them anyway.) Are you aware that his lyrics, which he clearly states belong to God, are taken directly from the Word? That would make the theology of his songs spot-on, would it not? Also, concerning your choice of words, "Sunday morning church music," am I to understand that you believe worship is limited to Sunday mornings in a specified building, at a specified time? Worship is carried out in every moment of our lives, in every thing that we do and who we are. I worship God as I perform my duties as a 1st grade teacher, as I care for my husband and family, as I reach out to those in need, and as I lead others to sing songs of praise to God.
Your words do indeed seem judgmental, despite your stating otherwise. How can you possibly know the hearts of Chris Tomlin or David Crowder and whether or not they have "double-checked" theology? They are allowing God to use them as He will. I have heard them both interviewed in a live setting, and have witnessed their love for Him and their desire to reach a lost and dying world. God is using them to reach the world. They are quick to point to Him for all that they accomplish.
I realize I am somewhat rambling, and I must say that I appreciate any *style* of music written as an expression of worship of Almighty God, whether written today or hundreds of years prior. Please remember that all of these songs are written for God, not for man. We are to sing for Him and to Him. It is not for our benefit!
Wow! I am truly amazed at how much controversy John's song has stirred up! After reading all the comments; both negative and positive. I've come to this conclusion; that God doesn't really care what any of us thinks concerning the lyrics of this song. Because it was John's heart cry to his heavenly Father, and his approval is all that matters.
I would also like to point out that, if we're going to point the finger at John for writing such a song, with such thought provoking lyrics about our Father's love towards us. We must go back and read our Bibles, and look up the book "Song of Solomon". Solomon's lyrics were just as revealing as John's. Also, there's an interesting picture story about God's love towards His people depicted in the life of Hosea the Prophet, and his wife Gomer the prostitute. What an awesome picture of God's love.
He's not literally referring to the love of Christ as a mere kiss, he's describing the beautiful collision and convergence of the wonder of heaven and sinfulness of the Earth being joined like a sloppy wet kiss. The joining of two, but not just the joining, but the overlapping and "sloppiness" that blends the two in a glorious way that Christ has planned. If your wife is offended by that, then she must be offended when the Bible uses metaphors such as the Church being the bride of Christ. That is exactly the kind of metaphor you said your wife finds offensive because of its comparing human relation and affection to Christ's love.
Thank you, Karen! You are so right, I hope Daniel reads and thinks about what you said.
This discussion may have gotten a little stale by now, but I just discovered this amazing song and had some thoughts about it.
We've done this song a few times in worship at my church recently with the David Crowder lyrics. The song really shocked me anyway – in a completely good way. It's the first time in a long time that I've experienced a worship song stepping out of the safe and sweet lyrics that, to me, don't reflect the depth of pain and the depth of God's love in the bible or in my own life. It was actually the rest of the controversial sentence that hit me the hardest: ". . . and my heart turned violently inside of my chest."
I think the "sloppy wet kiss" lyric is mild in comparison to this and I see no problem in it at all. The idea that these lyrics are inappropriate seems relevant only in a pastoral sense, not a theological one. Worship leaders are responsible for how their songs will affect the life and spiritual growth of their congregations and there may be many cases where this kind of vivid language may be too distracting to be of value. My hope, though, is that in these kinds of congregations the leadership will work on shepherding their flock toward this kind of earthy and real depth rather than just avoiding it permanently.
Then maybe at some point they can start talking about the cross.
Great points Kelly, thanks for chiming in.
I wonder if any of you who do not like the lyrics "sloppy wet kiss" (which I personally would not have used) have ever written any better songs with better lyrics that have brought thousands of young people to a deeper worship? Do we know for a fact that these lyrics have actually done harm to the cause of Christ? Most likely not. So what's the problem? It would be revealing indeed if the Father Himself could post His own comment!! I realize that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion so here's mine… There seems to be an uncomfortable number of spectator Christians (who have never gotten off their "spiritual couch") telling the players on the field how to play the game. True? Just something to think about.
Just heard this song for the first time tonight and read all the comments. I really like the song and the lyrics definitely express a heart after God. The video clip shows how much the people are drawn to worship. That should be an inspiration to anyone in love with Jesus.
My church turned it into a beautiful kiss… ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Why is there so much religion in church?!
Well said Jonny! I totally agree!
I am a 50 year old grandmom, that happens to love this type of music and just recently, came across this wonderful song! It made me cry 'tears of joy and saddness' when i first heard it! I love it…'sloppy wet kiss'…. and all !
And, agree with you, that in some cases…this line, may at times, be misunderstood!
Never the less, I feel it is a very annointed song, & I'm thankful, to have heard it! …and continue hearing it… as it's been in my head for days, along with the presence of God healing my heart, of old pain and regrets…and gently reminding me of … How He Loves!