I started off in the Vineyard back in the early to mid 80's at John Wimbers church. Eddie Espinosa was my mentor and he taught me everything I know, either directly or indirectly, about how to lead worship – in a Christ Centered way. I share this not to drop names, but to just confirm the article written by Kyle about worship.

I can tell you, with out any exaggeration, that Vineyard worship today is not only nowhere near the same as it was back in the 80's, it is exactly the opposite of what John Wimber taught us it should be. If you would like to know why the Vineyard is no longer as influential as it was back in those days, the reason is centered somewhere around this issue of worship. I know you might have a difficult time trying to make the connection, but, if you would allow me, I would like to share why they are related, from my perspective, for whatever it's worth.

There is a fundamental principle the Vineyard learned early on about worship, just as the movement was first starting. John talked about it in a paper he wrote titled, Worship: Intimacy with God. In it, he wrote, "We learned that what happens when we are alone with the Lord determines how intimate and deep the worship will be when we come together." Out of this principle, we learned that our worship services started long before Sunday morning came. Essentially, we were taught how to be worshipers, rather than just how to sing worship songs. We learned it, because our worship leaders modeled the lifestyle for us. As worship leaders, we were told this one thing before ever being considered, "If you want to be a worship leader, you must first be a worshiper".

Have you ever heard the term, you are what you eat? It's a true statement and it applies not just to the physical, but the spiritual as well. In the early days of the Vineyard, our worship leaders fed their sheep worship and as a result, their congregations fed on that and they became worshipers and lovers of God. Move forward somewhere after that, I don't know exactly when, but it's sometime after 1987 is when things began to change and you will find that this principle was set aside for something else. Worship leaders discovered they had talent and began expressing themselves musically a lot more than what we did in the early days. Move forward further to today and what you will find in most Vineyard churches is a rock concert or a production during the worship time. Apply the, "you are what you eat" principle to today: If you feed your congregations nothing but music, that's what they are going to feed on and what they will become is Song Singers. Feed them a rock concert and they become spectators, which is more inline of what I see in most Vineyard churches or any other church these days.

So, what does all of this have to do with the Vineyards influence diminishing over the years? Ask yourself, why was the Vineyard called, "The Vineyard". The answer is in John 15:5-8. I won't quote the whole passage, but I will focus on one aspect of it, "If you abide in Me, I will abide in you and you will bear much fruit". It goes onto say, "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples". This is the only reason why the Vineyard became so influential and it became a movement that shook the world. God showed up, not because it was something He chose to do, because He had some reason to start showing up back then. God showed up at the Vineyard church, because the church chose to show up before God back at home, before they even came to church.

You want to know how to plant a mega church these days? Find a really great teacher, and some really talented musicians who really know how to put on a great show. Apply some modern day church growth to the ingredience and you can plant a mega church these days, without God being involved with it in anyway, shape or form. People do it all the time.

You want to know how to start a movement that shakes the world, just like the Vineyard did back then. Find a small group of average, ordinary, nameless, faceless people and teach them how to become lovers and worshipers of the Lord Jesus Christ, making Him the center of their lives and how to abide in Him daily. That's it.

Now, you want to know how to destroy that movement. Kyle hit on it: Make church about something else, other than Christ.

First off, love New Frontiers and what you guys are doing, so keep up the good work.

Second, I think it's pretty well agreed that Vineyard's sphere of influence, reach and leadership in the global church has diminished significantly. There are a lot of differing opinions as to what exactly happened, I have my own set of opinions (unsurprisingly), but I'm not sure how best to address that topic, and I'm certain there are probably better figures than myself to write about it.

Third, I was attempting in the tone of my final questions to basically inquire along the lines you mentioned and that is…why isn't what John taught being talked about, used, and stood upon in the Vineyard? The sad truth is that even when John was alive there was some division theologically that led to some big splits inside the fellowship of churches, so it stands to reason that after John's passing that divide would increase rather than heal.

But like I said, I'm no longer part of the Vineyard, though I love them from afar and have many friends, worship leaders and pastors still in the Vineyard whom I know deeply love John Wimber, what he taught and stood for and trained them in. I just wish more would actually get back in touch with that original vision and see how orthodox his worship theology was.

Thanks for the comment, hope to interact more with ya.

can I make a comment that's slightly off topic?

I'm part of a reformed charismatic church network called Newfrontiers (originally UK but now all over the place). From the 80's onwards John and the Vineyard had a massive impact on our movement that really shaped our expression of church – especially 'doing the stuff'.

But only a few years after Wimbers death it seems like (from our perspective) Vineyard dropped off the map. I know it's still there (Vineyards largest UK church is in my home city of Nottingham), but the reach and influence seems greatly diminished.

Here's a baffling case in point – try to find Wimber's teaching on line.

I found ONE mp3 on a South African church's website. The offical store seems to be selling CD's and even tape cassettes!!!!!!! but no mp3's free or otherwise.

From an outsiders p.o.v. – it looks like Vineyard at large doesn't value or care about Wimber's legacy or teachings.

Your post would seem to say otherwise. But what gives?

Sorry to rant. I should probably have made this a post on my own blog!

Thanks anyway…